Intro 0:03
Welcome to Maximal Being, a podcast devoted to ditching fad diets and using real science to get you healthy and feeling great. I’m Doc Mok, a GI and functional medicine doctor who harnesses the power of gut health to get you achieving your goals. And I'm Jacky P, a well-informed layman who challenges the experts and ask the questions that you want. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button or leave a comment, and now onto the show.
Doc Mok 0:32
What's going on Maximal Beings, Doc Mok here with maximalbeing.com. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button. Leave us a comment, it does help us to get the word out. If you have any questions, you can email us at [email protected]. Enjoy the episode.
Jacky Homme 0:47
You know, you mentioned the beginning about, not only about African Americans, but you said Gen Z, and also the queer population. And you know, I'm sorry to say I don't really know how the medical system treats them differently, right? You know, I'm, I'm what they call a geriatric millennial, which is doubly insulting, because
Doc Mok 1:11
That must be like in in the one foot in the grave millennial,
Jacky Homme 1:15
Yeah, so you have,
Doc Mok 1:21
You're not a millenial
Jacky Homme 1:22
Yeah
Micah Lee 1:23
Dang guys,
Jacky Homme 1:25
So, you know. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts, or you too, Doc Mok on how this, especially, Gen Z, views the medical system, especially in this age of like, the internet. And just, you know, I I'm curious if you have any observations, or if there's any been data out there.
Micah Lee 1:49
Well, I'd say that based off of the people in my generation, queer, straight, it doesn't matter, um, just having that general stand back when it comes to health, when it comes to the government, when it comes to anything, it's just normal for us to be suspicious or just be unimpressed by anything. We were born around 9-11 we were born around a lot of different wars, a lot of different disasters. A lot of us graduated during the pandemic. So there is a general stand back as far as the generation, my generation, Gen Z, in general, and that and for health, that kind of goes along with it, even though we really do pound back E40 every single time. Red 40 when it comes to Takis or something like that, and that's not really good for your gut health. But we really do, the things that we eat and consume, they're typically bad, but it doesn't help that we already don't trust the system, so we're kind of pushed into this box of like, what do we do? Nothing. That is the general mindset. And I don't really like that, because we're young, right? We're very young. As far as the queer community, just getting help, specifically sexual health, is really hard for us to seek out, right because there's so much stigma around STDs, HIV, AIDS, so in general, it's harder for us to seek help or want to seek help out of embarrassment of certain questions, having dumb questions or not knowing certain things. So that also goes into you not wanting to go to the doctor, and also some people not being out of the closet. So that also could mean you just, the doctor is probably the last place you want to see if your parents don't even know that you're out. So like in general, going to the doctor, going to a healthcare provider, is out of the question, if you don't even trust the system or trust the world in general
Jacky Homme 4:18
Well that's that's very well put. Thank you for sharing, and that's one thing, too. Thank you for mentioning the Red 40 in the Takis, right? Because I remember seeing some some Instagram, and this woman was saying, hey, you know, when I was little, we ate junk food, and we're we're kind of okay, but the junk food from back in the day, not trying to sound like it someone older than I am, versus the junk food now is different, right? Even like McDonald's french fry, like they they used to be just like beef and tallow and just fries and now, just like all this stuff. So I am curious about that as well, and also, not to mention the plastics. I don't know if anyone out there is concerned about the plastics
Doc Mok 5:09
It's everywhere.
Jacky Homme 5:11
I am so concerned about life
Micah Lee 5:13
Yeah.
Jacky Homme 5:15
So yeah, I can imagine, I can see a world where the level of how young kids eat junk food, like when I was in high school, there were days where I would have, like, chips and some sort of baked good from the corner store and soda for breakfast, for lunch every other day, just because, you know, I was 16 year old who doesn't think about nutrition. But now it's like, that's like work. I mean, it wasn't great, then, don't get me wrong. But now I feel like it's probably so much worse. And if you come you know, and we see how what can cancers are coming in younger ages, and all these problems are coming on younger ages. And I'm like, Man,
Micah Lee 6:02
You can imagine feeling defeated by that as well. Even a lot of the healthier, quote, unquote, healthier options can be very processed. So as someone who's young in this kind of society right now, it's kind of hard to be optimistic about a lot of different things, especially health, especially the justice system, political, politics, it's really hard if you feel like you're coming everything is coming at you in all directions. Kind of grow to be pessimistic, and that is, unfortunately, an evaluation that I have come to this generation. We don't really take things too serious, but it's a coping mechanism to deal with the overwhelming sense of it doesn't matter what I do, there's always going to be something and that is hard to to navigate. As someone who's just packing back toffees. You eat like crap, you feel like crap, so it's just an endless cycle. Yeah,
Jacky Homme 7:14
Yeah, I can imagine it is scary. And I do feel, you know, I do feel, you know, empathetic towards like the next generations, because it's inheriting a bad bag here, you know, a lot of problems that's going to have to be fixed because of days of old. So, yeah,
Micah Lee 7:35
I believe they're called Gen Alpha, the one that's after Gen Z. I've gotten to talk to only a few of them, because they're still quite young, but they tend to also have like their attention spans are just as bad, if not worse, just being honest, but they tend to be more they come to terms with the world as it is. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing, they're more they're not really shocked by anything because they were born in it. They just accept it as is, versus Gen Z, who had a little bit of a glimpse of something different. And then, you know, panic and all of that stuff, things started to they weren't. They were no longer sheltered by their parents, or just no longer sheltered by the idea of, you know, life being in a well, in a perfect world. So Gen Alpha tends to like adapt to this world, but I don't really know if that's a good or a bad thing, yet you're still yeah.
Jacky Homme 8:41
Time will tell for sure.
Micah Lee 8:42
Yeah.
Jacky Homme 8:42
Well, we've been talking with Micah Lee about Micah Lee. It sound like I said, Mike Lee, but Micah Lee about, you know, I think a world of topics, right, social, medical, the kind of like the, how it overlaps, but we have to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll have some questions and some Sham or Gram, so we'll be right back.
Doc Mok 9:07
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Jacky Homme 10:57
And we are back. Thank you for waiting and your patience. So we've been speaking with Micah. We've been talking about, I mean, we went all across the spectrum, microbiomes, macrobiomes, right? Different social issues,
Doc Mok 11:16
Nanobiomes, plastic biomes
Jacky Homme 11:22
Plastic biomes
Doc Mok 11:23
Breath in to a whole, like recycled bottle.
Jacky Homme 11:28
Well, you know, you know, if I may just take this second and just so my wife and I went on a spiral about plastic. And, I mean, there isn't a plastic thing in the house anymore, like we've, we've gone back to glassware and, like, special, it's just, you know, and honestly, it was we, I had someone listen to that podcast, and I forgot who it was, but they said we ingest, like, a credit cards worth of plastic every week. And then I'm like, I like, I was on that podcast, I remember, but for some reason here again, now I'm like, what?
Doc Mok 12:11
That's because your mind was just like, nope.
Jacky Homme 12:13
Yeah, I can't handle that right now. I'm sorry.
Doc Mok 12:17
And we talked about that study where they found micro plastics in, like, Siberian Russia, where there is, there's no Amazon there, like they don't have plastic. But it found its way there to this, the poop of the Siberian people. And then somehow,
Jacky Homme 12:34
Yeah, and then, remember, there's another one that came up. And I don't know how I didn't fact check it, but there was, like, Dolphin breath I remember seeing. So you know how the algorithms get a hold of you when you start talking and thinking about things? But basically it was the article that popped up on my news feed, and it was like, you know, micro plastics and like dolphins breath and like forever chemicals and like rain in Miami. I'm like, Okay, I I definitely can't control any of that. So I'm just gonna lose sleep the next couple of days. But before we get to sham or gram, I'd like to drop also, folks, I've been using an app called Yuka, Y-U-K-A, and they don't pay me to do this, but I'm a very big advocate of knowing what you put in your body, and I will warn those listening it is a Pandora's box, because some of the things, back to your point, Micah, things that look look healthy, brand healthy, they use these very good words that mean nothing. I'll tell you, it is insane. My poor, poor wife had to throw away all her makeup, everything, fertility issues, hormonal issues, you name it like she her makeup bag went from like a case to like a sandwich bag.
Micah Lee 13:54
It's absolutely traumatizing, yeah? Health, fitness, yeah.
Jacky Homme 13:58
It is, yeah. Like goldfish. I used to love not to, I don't, you know, I'm not trying to drag any names, but I used to love goldfish. I thought they were great. But let me tell you something. So anywho,
Doc Mok 14:09
If they're not delicious, I guess
Jacky Homme 14:11
They're not, no, they're delicious, just they are also full of chemicals. But yeah, so anyone out there listening and you want to ruin your life at first, but then you'll feel much better, because one used to have asthma and eczema issues and all this stuff, and like all that stuff has since almost gone away since we've been using the app. So you know, what you put in your body is very important, and that's imma get off my soapbox about it. But let's get into. Go ahead Doc Mok.
Doc Mok 14:42
Can I just talk about one thing. So, like, I'm not-, I don't know. I'm noticing on things like, you know, grapes and cherries that they put, like, gluten free, dairy free, and it's like, it's just a grape, like, you don't need to put gluten free. And like,
Jacky Homme 15:02
Well actually
Doc Mok 15:04
But it's just a way to sell stuff,
Micah Lee 15:06
Anything to get $1 right?
Doc Mok 15:08
I know
Jacky Homme 15:09
Actually, I agree with you, but I don't remember. I just read someone had to recall a ton of butter because they didn't say there was milk in it. I forgot what company it was, but they literally had like, tens of thousands of tubs of butter. Are getting pulled off the shelf. People were eating butter and like, there's milk.
Doc Mok 15:35
I tell you, I have that conversation with patients a lot. I'm not trying to disparage people, but like, they're like, but I don't drink milk, but I get diarrhea every time I have butter. And it's like
Jacky Homme 15:46
It's weird. Every time I have butter, yogurt, and ice cream, my tummy just hurts.
Doc Mok 15:50
Yeah.
Micah Lee 15:51
Sometimes you just have to sit there and let them,
Jacky Homme 15:53
Yeah.
Doc Mok 15:54
Yeah.
Micah Lee 15:54
Just, you know, sink them, like, let them deal with that. Because, like, how do you put two and two
Doc Mok 16:00
You close the gap, you close the education gap. Yeah
Jacky Homme 16:05
All right, let's do this thing. So we got a little bit of time here. Okay, so, Micah, I'm not too sure if you're familiar with the rules, and those first listening, I will. So these are clips that no one has seen, and they are pulled from the wonderful Internet where everything is true all the time and and they're just keywords for each clip, so none of us know what they're about. And then we're going to watch it, and we're going to say sham or gram. And now I realize, you know, Sham is, if it's a sham, obviously, and Gram, I just said Gram because it rhymes and sounds nice, so Gram just means, yeah, it's not a sham. So anyone listening could think of a better name, please let us know.
Doc Mok 16:48
By the way, drinking, this is plastic. No, it's not. It's glass.
Jacky Homme 16:54
Alright. So these are the three options, chicken, banana, or westernized diet. Micah, please make a decision.
Micah Lee 17:11
Off the bat that sounds like a sham.
Jacky Homme 17:16
We never know the
Micah Lee 17:18
But it seems off the wall that it may actually be
Doc Mok 17:22
You want to pick chicken, the video called Chicken, Banana, or Western diet?
Jacky Homme 17:28
Yeah. Which one should we watch?
Micah Lee 17:30
Chicken?
Jacky Homme 17:31
Chicken? Chicken. Okay, I love chicken. All right. So do, do do Imma act like I haven't been on Zoom a million times in the last four years, and remember how to share. All right. So here we go. All right, this is Chicken
Clip 1 17:54
But the American Cancer Society encourages people to switch from red and processed meat to chicken. Why would the American Cancer Society tell people to switch from eating one carcinogenic food to another, when a Harvard University study showed that men with prostate cancer who eat large amounts of chicken increase their risk of the disease progressing four times. The number one dietary source in America of cholesterol is chicken because of the volume of chicken, chickens become grilled chicken and organic chicken. It's machismo, but it has nearly as much cholesterol per gram as red beef. So just on sheer volume, it's the number one source. Eggs being close by. I never really thought about eggs much. I just, is chicken better. It's a question of whether you want to be shot or hung. The flesh food that I would eliminate from the American diet would be poultry. Would be turkey and chicken. A brilliant advertising campaign has convinced people that, oh, it's white meat. It's healthier. The leading source of sodium in the American diet for adults, 800 milligrams of sodium. Heterocyclic amines are clear cut carcinogens, and they can form in any kind of meat as it's heated, as it's cooked, but by far the biggest source is chicken. We sent researchers into fast food and family restaurants. Not only were there carcinogens in every single restaurant, but we found them in every single chicken sample that we took. If somebody brings their family in and they're buying a bucket of chicken, nobody tells them that there are carcinogens. If you're selling carcinogens to people. You've got to warn them that they're in there.
Jacky Homme 19:23
I mean, I just, I just feel like they said they're going to restaurants, and then they're showing like, McDonald's, KFC, and like fast food restaurants, which I don't even know how those places are defined as food.
Micah Lee 19:44
I was gonna say I don't even feel like half of that is real chicken. So yeah, and I think that all together is a sham.
Doc Mok 19:54
Yeah, I so Dr Barnard makes some good points that heterocyclic amines are Carcinogens. And this is a compound that you get from heating things at a very high heat. So one of the notable sources is grilling something. If you grill something in the absence of compounds that can counteract the formation of heterocyclic amines, they are carcinogens. They can cause stomach cancer, but you're getting your samples from places that are serving the worst quality meat ever.
Micah Lee 20:29
Yeah
Jacky Homme 20:30
I, I, they showed Subway, Subway, literally, not allowed to call their bread bread in like Ireland, you can't call it bread here.
Micah Lee 20:42
The bar is so low in these areas.
Jacky Homme 20:46
Yeah.
Doc Mok 20:46
I mean
Jacky Homme 20:47
Yeah.
Doc Mok 20:48
Meat like the intake of saturated fat is correlated with cholesterol. But the other scientists who I could not see his name, he is just flat wrong that the intake of fat always correlates with cholesterol in your blood tests and coronary artery disease, right? We've talked about, we talked about that with Anker cholera, like years ago, is that it's a lot of it is carbohydrate intake, processed carbohydrates in excess, and sugars that turn into cholesterol in the bloodstream. You know, those heart healthy like Cheerios, not to disparage a brand, but things like that. It's not the intake of fat, necessarily. And people with a ketogenic diet don't always get heart issues right as a result. So it's kind of interesting. I'm not an advocate for the ketogenic diet, but, and then,
Jacky Homme 21:40
Sorry, go ahead Doc Mok
Doc Mok 21:41
I think, like, yeah, I think, like, one of the Paramount issues with this video is the difference between association and causality, right? So you can say more people that go to Disney World get prostate cancer, so Disney World causes prostate cancer. That's not true, right? Like you're using the dissociative property like the like math. The the way that you determine causality is you feed people a diet only of chicken for years, and you see who gets prostate cancer. And if people that only eat chicken, as opposed to not only chicken, get prostate cancer, then you can conclude that that causes cancer, but otherwise, it's association. It's not causality, and that's a lot of the red meat data too. It's same thing,right?
Jacky Homme 22:29
That's a good point, Doc. And also, can I ask a quick question, you know, because I've met folks in the past, or I'll see online, someone say, oh man, you know, I went vegetarian, I went vegan, and, you know, I lost a ton of weight, or what have you. And in my head, I was, I'd so easily say, like, yeah, you know, if you're, like, baking your chicken in like, sauces that are full of sugar and all this junk in it, yeah, of course you're going to lose weight because, you know, like, I love a good barbecue, barbecue ribs. But you think about the barbecue sauce, it's full of red, those corn syrup and all this nonsense in it. Yeah, that's, that's gonna happen, right? Like, and it's also from McDonald's, like, I mean, okay,
Doc Mok 23:16
Yeah, the next time we we get together, Jacky, I'm gonna make you my barbecue sauce, which is not made of that stuff, and it's delicious. But
Jacky Homme 23:24
I tell you something, I miss. I miss sweet baby Ray's, hell yeah, like that Yuka app has ruined it. Sweet Baby Ray's Barbecue sauce I miss ya, but you know, the stuff they put in it, you know, all right, yeah, or maybe one, maybe two.
Doc Mok 23:40
But it's like, what did your food eat? And how are you preparing it? And how are you going to eat it? Like, that's if you just do it the way that nature intended it, like chicken eating insects and grass and seeds, and then you eat that chicken and prepare it using, like, minimal normal ingredients, like it, it is good for I mean, it's not, you know, it's good for you in moderation
Jacky Homme 24:05
And and we need protein, it is a very important building block.
Doc Mok 24:10
Yeah, so,
Jacky Homme 24:12
All right,
Doc Mok 24:12
We're omnivores people. I mean, if vegan or vegetarian works for you, that is great. But our GI tract, our mouths are omnivorous,
Jacky Homme 24:23
And I'm going to be sure that even if you told me, Doc Mok, that entire video was true, you're not stopping it from eating chicken. I'm sorry, yeah, that's like 90% of my protein intake is chicken.
Doc Mok 24:38
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Jacky Homme 27:12
All right. Micah, so we got Banana and Westernized diet left. What do you pick?
Micah Lee 27:18
Go straight into Westernized diet, yeah
Jacky Homme 27:21
Westernized diet.
Doc Mok 27:23
Let's do the segue.
Jacky Homme 27:25
Boom, boom. Okay. I don't know where this video went. Whoopsie, sorry. My first day, everyone give me some
Westernized diet.
Clip 2 27:39
We've been programmed for sure. Say eat on a westernized level, we are okay with eating white rice. We're okay with using white garlic. You okay with using, you know, white cauliflower as a substance of nutrition. We're not supposed to eat cauliflower. No. Number one modified in the laboratory. Why we eating cauliflower? So broccoli is not real either. Broccoli is what? What nutritional value do we get from broccoli? So what's not real? Cauliflower, corn, corn, corn, broccoli, broccoli. Let me know, Carrots. Carrots is hybrid. Rice, white rice, uh, creates mucus, clogs up the arteries. So we should eat brown rice or quinoa. No, you should. You don't want brown rice. You want black rice. Put the corn down. No more corn at all. You don't want corn. It's not good for the digestive system. Is it true that eggs is a level two carcinogen or something like that? That egg is gonna cause a lot of inflammation. For one that egg is why do we feel we get protein from unborn chicken? I never understood the concept of it, but we, as American people, we have watched TV. We saw Rocky, cracking eggs and milkshakes, working out, consuming an egg like that, you're going to put a lot of inflammation around your tool, and now you have a lot of mucus in your lungs and high cholesterol, and it's downhill from there.
Jacky Homme 29:10
So first of all, as a as an adopted Philadelphia and keep Rocky's name out of your mouth. We're gonna start off there. If you're going to spew nonsense. Keep Rocky's name out of your mouth.
Doc Mok 29:30
They got the song right, oh dear. Um, where to start?
Micah Lee 29:38
Um, first off, everybody does not need to be behind a mic, I don't think any tracked, any whatsoever.
Doc Mok 29:55
Black rice is better than white rice.
Micah Lee 29:57
Yeah, there's some truth to some of that, but I think. He kind of went overboard on some type of some things.
Jacky Homme 30:04
It's, you know, it's one of those things that Doc Mok always says during Sham or Grams, is like, there's, like, this tiny little bit of a truth in a statement, and then they build a whole like world around it, and then says, eggs give you inflammation in your bronchial tubes. And like, you know, I we should have, should have known, because it says trigger warning, don't eat broccoli, carrots, or brown rice, which, by the way, is like 40% of my diet. And I'm upset. I'm actually offended
Micah Lee 30:44
This is also goes into because that's that kind of information is available to anybody, everybody. And there could be somebody who's like 15, who could believe that,
Doc Mok 30:57
Yeah, I think it's a little too sweeping in terms of the generalizations, I have read a book about the history of food, and in that book, they break down like certain fruits and vegetables and talk about their origins. So broccoli doesn't like did not exist naturally in its present form. It wasn't as like, robust in terms of the top part, it was more like a flowering plant, but it does exist naturally, like it is a natural plant that exists
Micah Lee 31:30
Just not like that originally
Doc Mok 31:32
Yeah, and it is loaded with fiber, and it is loaded with a compound called sulforaphane, which is an exceptionally potent antioxidant and free radical scavengers. So, you know, you sit in the sun and you get sun damage. It picks up all the damage in your DNA and not all of it, but it helps that process of cleaning up damaged DNA, and it also sulforaphane is a hormone balancing compound as well. So particularly, can up regulate testosterone levels in men that have androgen issues. So there are a lot of values in broccoli. Carrots are hybrid. The American orange carrot actually was bred by the Dutch people to celebrate their monarchy, which is the House of Orange, so that the carrot in nature never existed orange until recent and it became popular after that time. But the other colors of carrots that you see, the purple ones like the like, really pale yellowy ones like, that is how the carrot existed in nature, and it has done that for millions of years. Eggs are not a carcinogen, too. Stop picking on eggs. They're good for you. There's so much science, in fact, that they're good for you. For the love of God.
Jacky Homme 32:57
I'm not one to get on like, online arguments, but like, I would legitimately get on a like, Twitter battle with this guy, like they just bothered me, because that's what we're talking about earlier, about, like, just the distrust amongst African Americans and the medical so, like, someone's gonna watch that video, right? See these things, and then go to a doctor, and doctors say, hey, you see more vegetables, more carrots, broccoli, and then they're going to be like, oh, my doctor trying to poison me because I saw some dude on the internet talk about, don't eat broccoli or eggs or, you know, like,
Micah Lee 33:35
Everybody does not need a mic.
Jacky Homme 33:39
Check your sources, people. Check your sources, you know, yeah,
Micah Lee 33:43
Don't believe anything and everything, just because your favorite person said it,
Doc Mok 33:47
Yep, yeah. Look at the data. Look at the chemistry
Micah Lee 33:51
Do research on diets, on anything,
Doc Mok 33:55
Yeah, that was a good one. That was a doozy.
Jacky Homme 34:01
I gotta say, I I'm never, like, emotionally moved by, like, a ridiculous video that was just like, alright, I'm gonna let it go. Let it go.
Micah Lee 34:15
I just feel bad for the people who do believe it. Just like, wow, you really don't really like thinking for yourself, unfortunately, but yeah, you just end up feeling bad for people who do take that information as as word, which is usually young people, unfortunately. So yeah,
Doc Mok 34:38
Well, hopefully they listen to us and can see the other side of the rainbow.
Micah Lee 34:42
Oh, yeah. I run across those type of people on the internet all day. Almost every other day, I find someone with a you can tell the content that they watch, they just regurgitated. And you're just like, use your own judgment and research and whatever works for you go by that, and whatever your doctor tells you go by that as well. Use your own judgment here. Don't listen to somebody with 50k followers or something like that, because they have 50k followers. No, yeah,
Doc Mok 35:18
Guys as as the one white guy in this conversation. I really feel like this is important to get out on November 14th of 2024 or whenever this may be airing for all of you out there, I hope that you listen to what we said, if you're healthcare provider introspect and see what you can do to kind of bridge the gap, you know, and and listen to your patients, and take those few minutes just to talk to them as human beings, as always. I'm Doc Mok. I'm here with Jacky P and and we're also here with Micah Lee. Micah, if people want to reach out to you in your community, where can they find you?
Micah Lee 35:58
I am currently doing more social experiment conversations. But don't worry, I do have a Reddit it is u/Pluto_Child_06 again, that is u/Pluto_Child_06
Doc Mok 36:17
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